Raging Back: An Up Close and Personal Look at the Navy Heavyweight Rowing Team's 1984 IRA National Championship

Welcome to Navy Sports Central, the official podcast of the Navy Sports Nation!

In today's Deep Dive segment, we will visit with two members of the Navy Athletics Hall of Fame. You will get a first hand account on how the Heavyweight Rowing team won the national championship in 1984. 

We will discuss the Navy Rowing program in the early '80s, the make up of the team that eventually won it all, and some of the adversity they dealt with along the way. 

In addition to that, I will update you on the Army-Navy Star Series, and we'll have our Question of the Day and Mid Watch segments as well. So please join us for a very entertaining conversation with two members of one of the best crews the Navy Rowing program has ever produced. 

Related Links:

• Navy Rowing Honors History
• The 2024-25 Navy Heavyweight Rowing Team

We want your answer to our Question of the Day. Here is the one for this episode:
How many IRA Championships has the Navy Heavyweight Rowing team won?

A. 7
B. 9
C. 11
D. 13

You can answer by sending us a text message using the link at the top of the show notes. I'll also post the question on our group Facebook Page.

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Check out the Navy Sports Nation group page on Facebook!

Music is provided courtesy of Audio Jungle. Artists featured in order:

• Seven In Music (Intro)
• Alexiaction (Deep Dive)
• Loka Music (Deep Dive Pt. 2 Lead In)
• Artlss (Question of the Day Lead In)
• Cinematic Alex (Closeout Music)

Chapters

• 0:14 Intro & Episode Description
• 1:03 Sports Update
• 6:31 Deep Dive Segment (Pt. 1 - The Run Up to the IRAs)
• 48:06 Deep Dive Segment (Pt. 2 - The Championship Race)
• 1:21:02 What Makes Rowing So Special?
• 1:34:31 Question of the Day & Mid Watch Segments
• 1:39:05 Sign Off & Show Credits

Transcript

Karl: 0:14

Hi everybody, my name is Karl Darden and I'd like to welcome and thank all of you for joining us today on Navy Sports Central. I'm your host and this is the official podcast of the Navy Sports Nation where we take a deeper dive into Navy sports. Spring break is about a month away, which means the mids will finally be emerging from the dark ages. The Star Series has tightened up considerably, with the mids taking four straight last weekend to take a big chunk out of Army's lead. But the Black Knights are still ahead 9-7 and remain in the driver's seat with 10 contests to go. There are three more stars on the line this weekend in men's and women's basketball and wrestling, so we'll see if the Mids can continue their comeback. And the women's lacrosse team just got its season underway. We will check in with them to see how that went, and we have got a great deep dive segment for you in addition to our question of the day and mid-watch segments. So don't go anywhere. All right, it's great to have you guys with us. Thanks so much for dropping in. I really appreciate you taking the time. It is great to be back after some unplanned time off. And before we get started, I wanted to mention one thing. Thanks so much to all of my classmates and those of you in the Navy Sports Nation for your prayers after my father passed away. As some of you know, we lost him two days after Christmas, so January was kind of a rough month for all of us. I truly appreciated your kind words. Anyway, let's go ahead and jump right into things.

Karl: 1:32

Up until last weekend, army was looking like they were going to try and settle the Star Series about as quickly as Navy did in 2022. That year, the Mids won their 13th star before February was even over, and that set a record for the earliest time the series has been won since the number of competing sports surpassed 20. This year, the Black Knights jumped out to a huge lead and when they took both starts and swimming back in December, they put themselves in a position to pretty much win it all. Last weekend, they went into it with a 9-3 lead, so taking four sports would get them to 13,. Basically putting things out of reach. If they managed to do that, army would only need to win one more sport to take the series and, by the way, the magic number is now 14, since men's and women's rugby were added a couple years ago. But the mids weren't ready to concede anything.

Karl: 2:14

And last Saturday morning the rifle team got things started by beating Army. For the fourth straight year they took seven of the top 10 spots, including the first three. Isabella Baldwin led all competitors with an aggregate score of 1,185 points out of a possible 1,200. Marlee Duncan and Ryan Wee finished right behind her. The mids won by a score of 4,709 to 4,668, which is a pretty decent margin when you consider that last year the difference was only five points.

Karl: 2:39

Next up was the Navy Indoor Track Team. Both the men and the women were riding five-year winning streaks. Going into this meet was the Navy Indoor Track Team. Both the men and the women were riding five-year winning streaks going into this meet. Getting to six meant having to do it in hostile territory up at West Point, but they did get the job done. Barely a month after football season ended, nathan Kent showed he's in great form as he took both a 200 and a 400. Gia Anderson won the 60-meter hurdles and finished second behind teammate Annie Lemelin in the 60-meter dash, and both the men and the women dominated the relays. So when all the dust had settled, the men came away with a 99-82 win, while the women took their meet by a score of 94-87.

Karl: 3:13

Now the only sport left to be decided on Saturday was gymnastics, and that one was a nail-biter. The mids were behind by a little over half a point through three events, but Isaiah Drake led a comeback over the last three rotations to sew up a seventh straight win for Navy, and they did it on the road too. The mids totaled 314.6 points to 311.9 for Army, so now the Star Series stands at 9-7 in favor of the Black Knights, and things have gotten a whole lot more interesting. The fact is, army is still in a pretty good spot. They only have to win five of the remaining ten sports, while the mids have to come away with seven Ws.

Karl: 3:47

The next three stars on the line are in men's and women's basketball and wrestling. For Navy to have a legitimate shot at winning the series this year, I think they're going to need to grab two out of those three. A few weeks ago, the men's basketball team beat Army up at West Point, but the women got off to a slow start and never recovered. Up at West Point, but the women got off to a slow start and never recovered. The star games are being played at home, so my thought is that the fans can provide a little extra energy. That could prove to be the difference.

Karl: 4:11

The wrestling team has been competing very well this year, despite having lost a number of key seniors. Coach Kolat has always been big on developing depth by front loading the schedule with a lot of invitational meets. Now that they're going into the dual meets, the strategy looks to be paying off. The mids are currently 4-0, including wins over Lehigh and Bucknell, and those were two teams that beat Army recently. While I'm not saying the mids are locked to win, especially since they will be wrestling up at West Point, their confidence has been building over the last few weeks and it's just a matter of staying focused in the moment when they take the mat against Army.

Karl: 4:43

So the different scenarios following these next three contests are Army increasing their lead to 12-7. If they win all of them, that would be a very strong position going into the spring. Even an 11-8 lead would be a tough one for the Mids to overcome, but if Navy can take at least two out of the next three to close the gap to one, I think they have a reasonable path to winning the series in the spring, and it could all come down to the women's lacrosse game, and this was the one team, besides football, that I was most excited about this year. Last May, they took Loyola to overtime before falling short 12-11. And when the NCAA selection committee failed to give them an at-large bid, despite the mids beating two ranked opponents, many, including me, thought they'd made a huge mistake.

Karl: 5:20

This year, the women's goal is to leave no doubt, and that means winning their first Patriot League championship since 2018. To secure that automatic bid, the team is led by Emily Messinese, who is one of the toughest players I've ever seen put on a Navy jersey, and she has a boatload of support as well. Tori DiCarlo, Ava Yovino and Alyssa Daly are all back, while incoming freshman Alyssa Chung has had an immediate impact. In the mids home opener against St Joseph's, messonese had four goals and one assist. Jovino added a goal of her own, while Daly won seven of nine draw controls. Meanwhile, chung made her college debut by scoring a hat trick and picking up an assist. The final score was 16-9.

Karl: 5:55

Navy and just to be clear, St Joseph's has an excellent program. They've made it to the Atlantic 10 championship game in each of the last three seasons, winning it all in 2022. Next, the Navy women will take on Villanova as they make their way through a challenging non-conference schedule, and they should be battle-tested by the time Patriot League play begins in March. Okay, that gets you all caught up on the Star Series. Our Deep Dive segment is next and, trust me, you're going to want to stick around for this one. Joining me will be a couple of Navy Athletics Hall of Famers who will give us an up-close and personal look at the last national championship the Mids won in a sport that has been at Annapolis the longest. Stay with us. There are 36 varsity sports at the US Naval Academy, but none of them have been around longer than rowing. That would be 155 years, and during that time the program has had some terrific success.

Karl: 6:56

In this edition of our Deep Dive segment, we're going to take a look back at one of the best crews the Naval Academy has ever produced, and to do that, I'm going to welcome a couple of guests who also happen to be my classmates. First up we have Andy Bigelow. Andy came to the Academy from Sault Ste Marie, michigan. He competed in basketball on track while in high school and then transitioned to rowing. After arriving at Annapolis, andy was named a team captain as a senior and also competed at the 1984 Olympic Trials along with our other guests who I'll introduce next. He received his commission as a Marine Corps pilot following graduation and flew both the UH-1N helicopter and the AV-8B Harrier. Andy's been with United Airlines since 1997. He is a first officer on the Boeing 777 based out of San Francisco and is closing in on 18,000 flight hours. Andy, thanks so much for joining us on the show. I really appreciate it.

Andy: 7:42

Thank you.

Karl: 7:44

Our other guest is Chuck Melcher. As you'll learn, chuck was practically born with an oar in his hands and he was recruited to row at Annapolis. Following graduation, he joined the nuclear submarine community and he's currently working for a private equity firm investing in nuclear supply chain companies around the United States. Chuck's wife, tracy, was a Navy helicopter pilot and the former commanding officer of HC-6. They have two sons and two daughters. In fact, both of his daughters rode in college and they were their respective team captains at Wisconsin and MIT, and to say that Chuck and Tracy try to stay active is probably about as big an understatement as there is. They have climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, dove into Galapagos Islands and biked from Berlin, germany, to Prague in the Czech Republic. In fact, andy and his wife Sarah teamed up with him on those last couple of trips.

Karl: 8:28

Chuck, welcome to the show. Thanks for taking the time to be with us today. Yeah, looking forward to it. Okay, to get the conversation started, I was wondering if you could both share the time when you were first introduced to rowing. It's not exactly a mainstream sport and I know that Navy is known for taking really good athletes and developing them into elite rowers. So, andy, let's start with you.

Andy: 8:50

Well, my first exposure was probably like a lot of athletes who come to the Naval Academy at least back then was when I got to the Naval Academy.

Andy: 8:59

I really did not even know what crew was when I received a recruiting letter, and that's not an uncommon story.

Andy: 9:06

I've heard many of our classmates and others while we were there say the same thing and I looked at it as another avenue to getting preference, to maybe getting into the academy, and I knew that I wanted to do something sports related and I had played basketball in high school and a little bit of track cross country, but I knew that I didn't have the ability to play college, especially Division One college basketball, although I told myself for a short period of time that maybe I could. And really after I got there I realized that that rowing was probably what I should be doing or would be best suited to do, and I didn't really have a. I didn't have any other background than that. And what was encouraging was seeing all the athletes and hearing about all the stories of athletes before us who had who had come under the same circumstances they had, they had been high school athletes, but they were not rowers in high school and they were able to basically be transformed into pretty decent rowers by the time their four years were up.

Karl: 10:18

Okay.

Chuck: 10:19

Chuck, how about you? Yeah, mine was a very different story. Combination of good timing and bad judgment on my part. My grandfathers both rode. My father rode, all my older brothers rode, so I was going to row and I can tell you with 100% certainty I would not have gotten into the Naval Academy, where Dreyfus is not on the hunt for anyone to help him row, and so you know, I don't know how that works in the background, but I'm sure that didn't hurt any. And you know I tried every other sport football, soccer, cross-country, cross-country, skiing and crew. And if Andy sees me run, so he knows how my cross-country running career was. And there's not a lot of snow in Maryland, so that was out and so it was rowing or go somewhere else to school.

Karl: 11:15

Okay, so now you live in Chicago now, but where did you live when you were applying to the academy?

Chuck: 11:20

Boston.

Karl: 11:21

Boston. Boston Got it, which is why I didn't apply to.

Chuck: 11:23

Harvard, because we still dislike those guys.

Karl: 11:28

Right, right, okay, so I wanted to transition from there into a discussion on how a crew actually gets put together. I had a good conversation with Sean Bagnall, who's the lightweight rowing coach, and he was sharing with me this flow that started with hitting a certain benchmark on on the erg machines uh, the concept, two rowers, and then that was basically. He described that as basically like you know, um, the, the job interview or whatever, and then that gets you the seat in the boat and then that's really your, your second interview, which you really got to kind of prove yourself and so forth, and then, depending on how that goes, you, you get assigned a seat in one of the shelves. So I was wanting to hear it from like the oarsman's perspective, right, I mean, what was that experience like? And when you were going through it, did you just go? Okay, am I really making the right choice here, or what? What do you think, andy?

Andy: 12:26

Right, yeah, that's an interesting concept. You know, really, when we were rowing and we showed up in 1980, the ergs were just not as available as they are now. We didn't have all the concept twos. Those actually came while we were there but we didn't have anywhere near the numbers that they have now in any rowing program. You just see rooms full of these Concept 2 or other brand rowers. We had these big they called them East German rowing machines. They had a big flywheel on them with weights they would put on it, depending on your weight, to compensate, and they looked like torture machines. I mean they really looked like they looked like torture machines. I mean they really did, and they felt like torture machines. And so so I remember showing up and seeing these things and that like the darkest, dirtiest corner of the boathouse and thinking, oh okay, at some point I'm going to have to sit on that thing and go for it.

Andy: 13:19

But I guess my when we showed up, you know it was with Coach Ken Dreyfus as plebs and you weren't allowed. I don't know, I guess now it's different, but at the time you weren't allowed. It didn't matter how great you were, even if you were a legacy like Chuck Melker, coming from a prep school or rowing background, you could not row in the varsity, it wouldn't matter how great you were I think that may be different now but then you had to row on the freshman crew, which I guess there's pros and cons to that, but anyway, ken Dreyfuss' way of introducing us to rowing as well as fitness, as well as sizing us up for whatever he was looking for toughness, resilience, maybe probably the biggest things, I think, at that level, and then some level of athleticism. He couldn't expect too much out of most of us, but some level of athleticism so that we wouldn't screw the boat up. And so I guess, from my perspective, it was mostly about just being fit and not, and not, um, you know, giving in to, to fatigue. And then also we were being, we were being measured all the time. It didn't matter if it was hill sprints or an ergometer or a run or pull-ups or whatever. Everything just seemed to be up to me, and again I was the. I was truly a novice. Everything just seemed to be a to me, and again I was truly a novice. Everything just seemed to be somewhat of equal weight. And I think we saw as we went along where we were stacking up in that regard.

Andy: 14:54

And then you, finally, you know, you get in a boat and row and you're, you know the boats are all over the place, you're smacking water, you're tipping, you're thinking, wow, is this really what I want to do? They're long, hard practices. In fact, I will add that I came and rode Plebe Summer like everybody did who was recruited, I guess? And at the end of Plebe Summer I decided I don't think this is what I want to do. I think I'm going to make a run for see if I can play basketball. And so I said earlier I realized I wasn't think this is what I want to do. I think I'm going to make a run for see if I can play basketball. And so I said earlier, I realized I wasn't good enough to play D1, but maybe I could make it on the JV team, who knows?

Andy: 15:32

Next thing, you know I'm playing on my company basketball team because I wasn't good enough to play at the intercollegiate level and unfortunately, our company team won the brigade championship. So I was all enthused about that. And then I quickly realized that that was a fluke. It wasn't because of me that we won the brigade championship and and I was convinced to come back to rowing after Christmas break, I believe year. So I kind of, I kind of I left for a semester, came back and decided if I came back I wasn't going to quit again, and and stuck with it.

Karl: 16:09

So it was. It was a gone. Well, thank you, that's nice.

Andy: 16:13

Chuck. I mean, I came back and saw what these guys have been doing and said, well, that was a nice break, but it's time to get back to work here. And yeah, that was. That was my experience from a fitness standpoint.

Karl: 16:25

Okay, All right. So, Chuck, I wanted to you know, given your much longer history, starting in seventh grade and so forth, when it comes to rowing, I wanted to have a little discussion on the differences, if any, in the responsibilities for the different seat positions. I mean, I think everybody who's even remotely connected to rowing understands the importance of the stroke seat. But we can talk. I definitely want to talk about that, and but also the others too. So I was wondering if you could share your thoughts.

Chuck: 16:54

Yeah. So I want to add one other step to your previous question, though. Okay, the first step, before even the erg and all that, it's just about not quitting. Right, right, right. If you just don't quit and you're just barely good enough and I put myself in that category despite my long years of rowing you're going to have a shot, and I think you know, andy. I think about guys like Jen Goff, who I truly don't remember hearing about. I can't picture him until our senior year, and then he ends up in the two-seat of the national championship-winning boat Great example.

Chuck: 17:34

Yeah, and there are many others. He just refused to quit. He was down. I couldn't even tell you how his ergs were or what his runs were Not that I saw anybody running, but nonetheless. And so that's the first step. Yeah, now people get on an erg, and and there's 30 of them or 40 of them in a room, we had four, and you know they do make some cuts. But even my daughter, who wrote it, wisconsin was literally at every cut through her freshman year, she was the last one they did not cut, literally. They started with 120. She was 79 of 80. She was 39 of 40. She was 24th and she ended up captain of the varsity boat and stroking the boat in her senior year, just like your dad, just like your dad, so, but it's, it's just about not quitting.

Chuck: 18:28

As far as the seats, we make a lot, we make a big deal about that in the boat, I mean every day, you know ports are better than starboards because because the way the thing is rigged and so starboards have a leverage advancement.

Chuck: 18:44

So ports have to be stronger. You know, they think they have to keep. They're behind us because they have to keep an eye on us, because we slack off and they need to push us. You know, the middle four guys are billed as the strongest. We call them the engine room. They're the strongest guys. Of course that's where you know Shrek, down there on your screen, you know, sat for his four years rowing.

Andy: 19:09

Out of necessity.

Chuck: 19:12

Really, because the boat's narrower and a guy as big as Andy just can't get in there in the stern. You don't want a guy like Andy in the bow diving the bow into the water, so you put your lightweights up there. The bow into the water, so you put your lightweights up there. But guys like Goff and Piercy and Coker would take real umbrage at that and I rode the two seat in my junior year.

Chuck: 19:34

I was the other end of the boat in my junior year and it's a completely different experience to your question. You're really when you're in the engine room, andy, I imagine or I never rode the middle of the boat, I was never strong enough to be in that position, so I was either in the stern pair or the bow pair, always. Um, when you're in the stern you really feel like you are, you know, part of a just this machine. When you're in the bow, you feel very alone. It's literally just you. There's nobody to talk to, nobody gives a crap that you're up there, you know, you know nobody's watching you. So, assassin, because at 190 pounds or whatever he was, he kicked all our asses on the erg all the time.

Andy: 20:32

The last thing I wanted to support was to seat race Pat Piercy ever.

Chuck: 20:35

Admiral Piercy, by the way. Admiral right three-star Admiral Piercy. So yeah, generally speaking, I don't know about the middle end and you can talk about that, but I always felt a very close kindred with the guy who the starboard, who rode behind me or in front of me depending on how the boat is rigged. So Jim and I, you know, I think, became very close friends because he and I were the guys that talked to each other throughout the race.

Karl: 21:03

This was Jim Schofield.

Chuck: 21:05

Yeah. And the bow. You know, I talked to the bowman, but nobody else. I don't know. Andy, maybe you can talk to how the middle feels about life, but that's just my experience.

Andy: 21:14

Well, I almost felt the most comfortable in the middle seats in the engine room and that was in many ways yeah, that's, I always joke that, but it's true. You could I always joke that, but it's true you could pull hard but you could also hide a lot of technique mistakes, and I had plenty of them. So you could get away with maybe not the best technique sometimes in the middle of the boat, as long as you were pulling hard and not screwing the swing of the boat up as much as possible. In practice we used to and rightfully so we would put into the stern seats of the fours especially and I just remember just not enjoying rowing in the stroke seat on long rows that we do, especially in the fall in a four it just felt like I just couldn't tell where we were supposed to be.

Andy: 22:02

My timing never felt great. I just couldn't tell where we were supposed to be. My timing never felt great. And the best part about being one back for the stroke even is you can at least see what the timing is, see where the blades are.

Andy: 22:18

And then for me, in the middle of the boat, all I had to do is just keep either focus or just have a side view of Jim Schofield's starboard oar going in and as long as I was matching that or thinking I was matching that, I felt better about my rowing. And then the same thing that Chuck was saying in the bow those guys are the magicians of sort, just trying to not mess it up, trying to help keep the boat balanced. And you know, being the I would say sort of the artists in the boat, those of us in the middle, we were just, you know, being that, I would say sort of the artists in the boat, those of us in the middle, we were just, you know, we were just hammers and doing our best to pull hard but not mess things up. And that's how I saw it.

Chuck: 22:54

Right right. The nice part about those bow guys is they can. The problem you have up there is you can see everything. So the cocks can see everything and the bow guys can see everything. The Cox is empowered to coach. The bow guys are not. The Cox doesn't? I mean, he knows what's happening but he doesn't know what it's like. He's never rowed. When you're in the bow, you desperately want to tell Andy you're late every stroke or you're leaning out and you can't.

Chuck: 23:28

So, you've got to shut up and row Not a good thing for me by the movie Into the Stern, where I couldn't see anybody. But yeah, those guys really do make all the difference because if they're out of whack the boat bow tends to bounce and that slows you down. Every time it's like throwing a weight out. The middle guys and the stern guys can get away with a lot of errors, but the leverage up in the bows 80 feet of lever arm that can really jack you up.

Karl: 23:55

Right right. Now, you mentioned Coxman there, chuck, and I was kind of curious and I meant to ask Coach Bagnall this question the last time we spoke and it just kind of slipped my mind. But what does that selection process look like, you know, since you you know to your point that they did they've not rode. I mean, I imagine they were coming from a background, from some sort of rowing background, am I right?

Chuck: 24:16

no, almost never we. We actually had two came from philadelphia. Okay, uh, they were 83 guys. Uh, you know, joe Nangle was one. I think Griff had coxed in high school.

Andy: 24:28

He had. Yeah, thank you, and Weiner.

Chuck: 24:33

He coached Father Judge or something, right, right, but we had three or four guys who had never coxed. It's something you can learn, it's. It is not rocket science. It's not easy to coach a group of, you know, dog panting rowers, right, but it's. You have this rudder that's like six inches by four inches steering a boat, that's, you know, by four inches, steering a boat that's close to 100 feet long, and so if you move that, all eight of those guys are pulling differently, so the boat just wants to kind of go all over the place. And so it can be learned.

Chuck: 25:21

It's not trivial, but if the guy is, the limit now, I think, is up to 120 pounds, but in our day if you were less than 115 pounds you had to have sandbags with you. So that was even. We had one cogs who made no bones about being 130, right, that's an extra 15 pounds. You don't want to be dragging three miles or whatever, 2,000 meters over the races. And we had another guy who couldn't miss a bridge. It didn't matter what the bridge was, he just couldn't miss it.

Chuck: 25:51

And so ultimately, you know, john Steckle emerged in all three of those categories as the guy who could sort of manage that and, importantly, manage me at the end there and he and I still have a love hate relationship and that's 40 years later. We still get together, give each other a hard time about our experience. Um, but yeah, it's that, it's uh. It's obviously less about the physical uh merging and it's much more about the personality merge. I'm sure clothierier put him in there because he was confident Clothier would stand up to me. I'm sure that's what Andy. You jumped in, you were the captain, you talked to Clothier. I never spoke with the man.

Andy: 26:36

Yeah, no, I think John was. You know, it occurs to me now that how much tougher that job is than what I appreciated, because when you're working out every day and you're in the coxswains and many of them, and John included, did work out with us, but you know, it just was on a different level and and they did that, I think rightfully so as a way to to be part of the team, to ingratiate themselves. But really, what a tough job. Like Chuck said, you don't realize that I've never tried to steer an eight-man shell with all that weight in it. I can only imagine how tough it is on some of these courses. And then the other side, so there's a technical. Then the other side is the leadership side and trying to be an amateur psychologist in the boat, especially dealing with the personalities in the boat, especially dealing with the personalities. And you're looking at that stroke war right there as you're simultaneously trying to motivate him and not get in the way. It's not about the coxswain, it's really not about any individual in the boat, it's about the boat itself. But that coxswain has to be strong enough to be able to critique on the run and to coach.

Andy: 27:49

What a tough job. I never really appreciated how tough it was when I was there. So, yeah, john was a great fit for us. Joe Nangle the year before. We just all respected the heck out of him because he had coxed in high school in Philadelphia. Very good friends with our other classmate, tom Beck, who stroked the boat our junior year and, yeah, we respected the heck out of Joe because of that. John was a different coxswain, but I he was. I think he was equally effective, right.

Chuck: 28:22

The nice part about Joe was A he was equally effective, right. The nice part about joe was, uh, um, a, he was very affable. Two, he was very philadelphia. Right, he had, he had an edge on him and a bit of a mouth on him and which which was, which was refreshing. Um, to some degree, and in fact, you know when, when he is uh, accusing the other crew, who's three seats ahead of you, of having parents that have never met one another, and that sort of thing. You know that that that goes a long way when you're when you're about to die, right.

Andy: 28:56

And uh, so yeah, no, we, we liked him as well, he was a good guy to have on your side.

Chuck: 29:00

Yeah, so yeah, no, we liked him as well.

Andy: 29:02

He was a good guy to have on your side. Yeah, yeah, exactly that's pretty good.

Karl: 29:08

Okay, so now I want to start kind of getting into the state of the team as we all came back for our senior year. When you look back and you think about the members of the class of 83 who were on the rowing team, how much of an impact did them graduating have on the makeup and the construct of the? You know the one boat and the. You know the first and second boats and maybe even the third one, I don't know in terms of just you know depth moving on and you guys and the coaches having to replace it.

Chuck: 29:50

Chuck, you want to take that Sure. So rolling the clock back a year before that, when all of us except Andy, who had to make the varsity boat as a youngster the rest of us in 84, I guess Andy and Trevor McIntyre made the varsity boat. Trevor stroked the varsity boat as a sophomore, which is almost unheard of.

Chuck: 30:14

They missed winning the Eastern Sprints by I don't know less than half a second or something. It was really an incredible year. The rest of us were together in the JV boat, with one first year and one 83 guy, and so that experience, I think, set a tone that, even though Andy and Trevor weren't in the boat, gelled us as a class in a way that was really unique, because that generally doesn't happen you generally spread out and that boat would often beat. Often would probably 30% of the time beat the varsity boat in practice, which annoyed Clothier to no end.

Chuck: 30:51

He refused to call us a JV and even today, our picture in the boathouse says second varsity rather than junior varsity. You know we went undefeated and won all the championships by multiple open water. So I think my feeling and I have great respect for Dino, as you can imagine, who was the team captain, dino Avalace, who went on to be assistant secretary and secretary of the Navy for a bit, I think, and some other guys in there brian, regal and regal was yeah, for example, um, but I think we were waiting. I was, let me say this, I was waiting for our chances at class to get into that boat, relive the sophomore year with andy and trevor back in the mix, um, uh, and, and see what we could do at that level. So for me, I missed those guys, but I was eager for what we were going to do as seniors.

Andy: 31:53

Yeah, and Carl. The other thing that I reminded our fleet coach, ken Dreyfus, of recently was he didn't know this or had forgotten it. He said you know our class because he was telling us how talented the class of 82 was. And they were. They had four guys from that class who rode on the national team. I mean, they were really, really talented as a class. No class ever had that many guys. Yet we beat those guys when they were seniors.

Andy: 32:21

We have to start the spring season out. It's kind of a fun thing, but it's a very competitive thing. They're called class day races and, uh, we as plebes had I don't know we were second or third and we didn't know we were flailing, but as sophomores, as youngsters, we won that race against and we beat the seniors and these. This is a group that had four guys go to the national team that following summer and and we never looked. I think that's when it sort of hit us.

Andy: 32:47

We really do have a strong, deep class and, as Chuck said, most of the class ended up rowing in the JV boat that year and those of us the few of us that were in the varsity we knew that coming up all the way that we were going to be strong as second class and strong as seniors as first class, and so really it was sort of a feeling of looking forward to this, really looking forward to our class dominating this varsity boat in numbers. And then we pulled up some really talented guys from the class of 85 who ended up rowing with us, who had had lots of success as well. So yeah, like Chuck said, as much respect as I had for the guys in 83 and they were a good group I think we didn't feel like we were going to fall down at all our senior year.

Chuck: 33:43

Okay, all right, very good, carl. That experience was one of the first moments, early real leadership experiences that I carried with me throughout my Navy and then and now private industry career, which is, hey, when the people you think you can't live without somehow depart the pattern, someone is always waiting in the wings to fill that gap and probably will do it better, right, guys like Beach and Piercy, specifically walter, certainly. I guess walters was the yeah, walters was the assassin. Sorry, I may miss that up, anyway, um, and so I mean, make no mistake, I only made the varsity boat because the three senior, the three ports ahead of me, all quit right to my earlier point.

Chuck: 34:31

Sometimes it's just got to be the last guy standing, but you know, mcintyre hurt himself, tom Beck had a really tough junior year and was emotionally exhausted, and Earl Panico, I'm sure he found his 15th girlfriend and didn't have time for us. Had those guys, had those guys not quit, I would not have made the boat, I certainly wouldn't have stroked it, but I would not have have made it. And so then those three guys made way for walters and and piercey and goth and beach, yeah, um, who frankly, were probably more willing to die with us.

Andy: 35:11

Yeah, chuck's being modest though I, I you would have certainly made the boat. We were actually very fortunate to have you in the stroke seat. So yeah, no, we lost some talented guys, but no, we were lucky to have you.

Karl: 35:25

Right, right. So I wanted to talk a little bit about the season itself, and I know that you got a fall session and then you know the bulk of your season is in the spring. I was looking at the schedule for both teams this year and noticed that the lightweights had three races in the fall, while the heavyweights only had one. Was it like that back then, or did you guys have a few more that you did?

Andy: 35:48

No, it was. Things have changed. For one thing, the Navy lightweights are a lot more prominent now than they were when we were rowing. They are sort of the primo program in the boathouse right now, I would say, and they have been for a while. They've been very successful.

Andy: 36:05

It wasn't that when we were there we glommed on. We were lucky enough to come in at a time when the Navy heavyweights had won the 1980 IRA championship. We had a couple guys that had graduated, who, one guy in particular, who was made that 1980 US Olympic team, but of course they didn't row because of the Moscow Olympics. And so there was a strong feeling of that bonus. And certainly we, we were the premier program. You know, we were the ones that were given all the most of the, the emphasis and the resources, I would say the heavyweights.

Andy: 36:39

And so starting in 19 the fall of 1980, we went to the Navy heavyweights, all of us went to the head of the Charles and the head of the Schuylkill regattas and they won it. We were pleased they won it in 1980. And then when we were there, well, the whole four years we were there, we won the what's the event called Chuck Championship Eight, championship Eight. So that is the highest level race at both of those regattas, and the Navy heavyweights won it four years in a row. In fact, they may have won it the fifth year I don't remember after we left, but five years yeah.

Karl: 37:24

Five years in a row yep.

Andy: 37:26

And we won both those races. Well, one of them we were disqualified. Chuck can talk about that, but we ended up. The jv ended up winning. I think, I don't know, it was, uh, the head of the school calling yes, we did which was kind of a funny story, but anyway, that was the strength of, I mean, we.

Andy: 37:43

Those things for us were a big deal. I'm not sure that all the rowing colleges took it as seriously as we did maybe not, but we took it very seriously. And, um, it didn't want to be the first crew to not win the thing. You know, it became a kind of a uh, a weight, almost uh, a motivator, but also a little bit of a weight, and and so the fall was a big deal and I don't remember what the lightweights rode in the fall, uh, or the women, but um, they did okay they went yeah and I just couldn't remember how many.

Andy: 38:14

But things changed over the years and then I just know that this year I'm not sure about this, but maybe this is the first fall that the Navy heavyweights have not rode at the head of the Charles and and I in a long time but I don't know.

Andy: 38:35

So that was a big deal. And my understanding, yeah, in a long time Maybe, since before we were there, but I don't know. Yeah, so that was a big deal. And I my understanding about that was a new coaching staff and he felt like he had he could better use his time and resources not going. So, yeah, it'll be interesting to see, right, right.

Chuck: 38:52

Carl, when you think about that race it, it played to Navy's strengths, right. So, all right, you had the occasional guy like me that had rowed before and needed to relearn everything, and then you had six or seven guys like Andy that you know were chomping at the bit, who were learning to row or were in their first four years, right. And so Clothier's strategy through that period of time is we're just going to out-row other colleges, we're going to put more miles in to catch up for what all those prep school kids did when they were in high school. And so we would go to the head of the Severn, which is 12 miles each way, you know, on a regular basis and do stuff like that. So we put a lot of miles in in the fall, probably faster than any other crew out there.

Chuck: 39:37

I would think, Andrew, maybe you might know different, but and so when you come to the head of the Charles on a three mile race, which is a bit unique, it's different. You know, we, we were just always ready for that race, and the good news is, if you win, the first 15 guys out of 40 that are in each event get to start in the position they finished the year before, and so all five of those years we started first, which makes all kinds of good difference, right, Because you don't got to pass people on turns and get people slowing you down and fight for bridge space, and so you know, our senior year, we, you know, we just literally saw nobody the entire time. Harvard started second. I think they finished 36 seconds behind us, which is just an incredible distance. Flatwater, good conditions, I mean it was. If we needed reinforcement for what Andy had said earlier, that race was hey, we might be okay. This year we're going to have a shot.

Karl: 40:35

Right. So it must have been pretty cool to have a result like that to get to thinking about your potential as a team. Okay, my next question is related to the Eastern Sprints and then how that race influenced you guys' performance at the IRA. So I had to kind of look up the results here. It looks like Brown won the Eastern Sprints and then Penn was right behind them and then you guys were third.

Chuck: 41:00

You're killing me. This is.

Andy: 41:02

Chuck's albatross right here. He unfairly takes the load on this one. That's not unfair.

Chuck: 41:10

Enjoy it.

Andy: 41:13

A man's got to know his limitations.

Chuck: 41:19

So yeah, we had gone undefeated and raced everybody except Brown by the time we got to the Eastern Sprints.

Karl: 41:25

And.

Chuck: 41:25

Eastern Sprints, you know they happen on the Saturday following our finals and people typically get out of finals on Wednesday. And you know, you know so we were. But some of us are pulling exams up to, you know, so it's not a great mental time. That's. That's my excuse for what happens next. Um, so we get there and everybody's ranked and we have a very good heat and won that going away. So we're in the pole position best lane. So we're in the pole position best lane.

Chuck: 41:54

And I just let it get away from me. You know it went to my head, I lost focus and we rode that normally back in the day. It's changed now but we would row at 36 to 37, maybe 38 strokes a minute in the bulk of the race. Now crews are rowing 39, 40, 41, but they have different equipment in different boats. It's different equipment in different boats, not to take anything away from them. And we went off. We were ahead after the start and we rode 39 to 40 the entire way down the course and at about the 1500 mark, you know, the gas was just out of everybody's tank and, and Brown and Penn said see ya, see ya guys, and went by us in the last 500. And, and, and, and, and. So you know I do mean this.

Chuck: 42:56

I don't think Rick Clothier said it wasn't a hundred words to me personally in my entire four years of the Naval Academy, andy, andy was the captain. He spoke with the captain I don't know if he's I'm sure he spoke with Jim Schofield, probably but, and the Coxons, but never a word to me. Um, the three of those words came after that race. You know what were you thinking? Like four words, right, um? And then I'm pretty sure he had a piece of john steckel for which sounded, probably sounded like why did you let him get away with that, right, um? But, andy, I'm sure you talked to clothier after, so you may have what his view is.

Andy: 43:36

Yeah, I don't remember him. You know, to his credit, he didn't come to me and say, yeah, we, we wrote. Well, I know he said we, we didn't roll the race you wanted to. Obviously we were, we were too high, but you know I took it more as a boat failure. Uh, I, I don't. I don't remember being a great race for me either. I remember, you know, probably feeling a little too amped up like we for whatever reason.

Andy: 44:01

The eastern sprints was just uh with. We never won the thing. And I mean, I remember sitting that 82 boat and we went out and flailed and just, you know, just did not row our best race and we seemed to 83 was similar and at 84 we were ranked one going into it and thought this is our year and I think that just sort of added to the pressure and a little bit of the over-excitement. So, but no, the biggest thing about, okay, we didn't win it, we were expected to win it. It was a disappointment, to say the least. But I think the best lesson from that whole experience was the way we came out of it. And I just remember personally thinking, all right, we can never get this back, it's over.

Andy: 44:46

And I remember we were riding in the bus to where we stayed in New London. We stayed at the BOQ in New London before we went home after that and we talked about it after the rest of the team got off the bus, just the varsity eight. We said you know what? We are good enough and we are fast enough. That was a fluke. We will be back for the IRAs, which really, from the of the program, the IRAs were more important race anyway. And we, we will come back and we will win this thing. And, and and. Chuck, I think you were the one that came up, maybe, with the phrase raging back. Yeah, yeah.

Andy: 45:31

Yeah, and so that and that was the attitude in the boathouse. It was. It was the most focused I've ever. Ever remembered for years. They're the most focused that a boat could be heading into the IRAs and it was. It was a very yeah, it's a very, it's a great memory.

Chuck: 45:47

So, yeah, not, the Eastern Sprints weren't a great memory, but we did the right thing from it, we learned from it and really, really became cohesive because of it and interestingly, carl, it wasn't all doom and gloom I mean it was for us personally but the freshmen surprisingly won the eastern sprints after I don't know I think I don't know if they won a race all season, but they came together at Eastern sprints and won, going away in a really surprising change. And so you know, for me that that was a you know okay. You know I screwed this up, but the program isn't dead. Look what's coming behind us. And those guys could be another us right. When maybe freshmen win a race, that's a big deal, because it's all a bunch of novices really. So there was some. You know, okay, how do we send the program forward.

Karl: 46:45

Yeah, shout out to 87,. Yeah, I actually interviewed Sean Coughlin about a year ago and he was actually one of my plebs. I was his plebs summer squad leader.

Andy: 46:56

Is that?

Karl: 46:57

right. Yeah so we had a great conversation about a year ago and it was a lot of fun talking to him.

Chuck: 47:03

I recruited him. He went to my high school oh is that right? Okay, yeah. And Clothier or Dreyfus called me and said hey, when you're home for Christmas, I want you to go back to your high school and take this guy, sean Coughlin, out to lunch. He's considering coming here.

Andy: 47:19

I need you to push him over the edge, and so the rest is history.

Karl: 47:24

Yeah, yeah, ok, we're going to go ahead and take a short break now, but before we do that, I did want to give you all a couple of ways to stay up to date on Navy sports. The first is to join the Navy Sports Nation group Facebook page. I've got a link to that in the show notes. Just click on it, answer a couple of questions and you'll be good to go. The second way takes even less time.

Karl: 47:43

Just hit the follow button on whichever platform you're listening to this podcast right now. It can be Apple Podcasts, spotify, iheartradio, it doesn't matter. Once you do that, every episode will be downloaded to your directory when it's released and you can listen to it whenever you're ready. So please consider becoming a member of our group and you can actually tap that follow button right now to show your support for the podcast. I'm looking forward to having you join us. We'll be right back. Thanks for staying with us on Navy Sports Central. Karl Darden here with you, and we are continuing our conversation with Andy Bigelow and Chuck Melcher, two members of the Navy heavyweight rowing team that won the national championship in 1984. Okay, now let's get into how things played out at the IRA championships. But before we start, Andy, I wanted to, for the record, have you mention each member in that Varsity 8 boat, from the number one seat all the way back to the coxswain.

Andy: 48:48

Right.

Andy: 48:48

So Jan Goff was our bowman, class 84. And, like Chuck mentioned, just never gave up, never gave in, doesn't say a lot, didn't talk a lot. Jan's a pretty private guy and, yeah, he just worked his way, just worked hard and won. And you were asking earlier what allows you to get a seat in a boat. What was really important then, and I'm assuming still is, are seat races. So not only is it your fitness level and your ERG scores, but it's the coach watching people in the boat how they're rowing. But then it comes down to okay, how do you compete with one another? And he will flip guys. In practice He'll flip one guy from one boat to another. Do you compete with one another? And he will flip guys. In practice He'll flip one guy from one boat to another. During in the middle of the practice. You literally pull the boats up next to each other and swap seats. And Jan I don't remember specifically, but he must've been winning seat races and I'm sure he was pulling good org scores. So Jan was our bow man.

Andy: 49:48

Then Admiral Pat Piercy was our number two class of 85 and 85, and just a tough, tough guy, you know, a great personality, just always positive, great guy to have on the boat. You know, just strong, strong rower. Number three, our classmate Bruce Coker, was a three-man and that's what I would call the start of the engine room the 3C, and that's what I would call the start of the engine room, the three seat and Bruce had been in those really good I mean fantastic second varsity boats for the two years prior. Just a strong, strong guy that wasn't going to give in and rode very well. And then in the four seat was John Beach, class of 85. John had rode in high school from Florida, as I remember, and very strong, a calm guy. It was good to have another calm guy in there in the middle and could pull hard and knew what he was doing.

Andy: 50:49

I was in the five seat where they could hide me as best as anyone could tell, not a great technique at all, like Chuck said, he and the coach, I don't know, they probably got tired of telling me you're late, you're late, you're late, you know, at the catch.

Andy: 51:05

But, I pulled pretty hard and I won a lot of seat races. In fact, I think the only seat race I lost that I remember was to Jim Schofield, our classmate. He beat me my senior year and that was tough to swallow. But on one hand it was tough to swallow, on the other hand I'm like good, okay, I know that there's somebody else in here who's pulling at least as hard as I am, so Jim was a great guy. Right in front of me in the sixth seat was John Walters, class 85. He's the guy. We actually called him Psycho. That was a nickname given to him by Jim Engle the coxswain from 83.

Andy: 51:45

Joe called him Psycho because John was just tough and never said a word. I mean almost to the point he was a little worried.

Chuck: 51:55

Yeah, tough is an understatement. Yeah, tough is an understatement.

Andy: 51:57

Yeah, tough is an understatement. This guy would you know we'd go through two-a-day practices during spring break. We're all wiped out and I look out my window at Bancroft and there's John out there running laps around the field, you know, on his own time, just to, for whatever reason, just to get the energy out. John ended up rowing in the 88 Olympics the one guy out of that boat who made an Olympic team and he did, though I think he's done at least one bike race across America. He's just a stud, phenomenal yeah, phenomenal athlete and a real gentleman physician now, I believe.

Andy: 52:35

And then in the seventh seat was Jim Schofield, our classmate, and Jim and I had kind of traded spots ever since our youngster year.

Andy: 52:44

We had traded spots back and forth, both roads, scarborough side, both fairly about the same size. Jim definitely put on some weight and muscle by our senior year and he and I were trading erg scores, trading races, and Jim was a great guy to have behind Chuck in the stroke seat because he was a better rower technique-wise and you needed that down there behind Chuck. And of course Chuck stroked the boat and, like he said, we'd had other guys stroking the boat from our class actually, but we felt like we were deep, and boy were we ever deep, seeing Chuck come from the year before, coming from the two-seat, and all of a sudden he's stroking the boat and doing very well. We had a very obviously successful senior year or so, and then John Steckle, of course, was our coxswain and he did a fantastic job. I admire him more and more as the years go by for putting up with the personalities and the stress of that job.

Karl: 53:45

Right, right. So, chuck, now I wanted to ask you, since you were in the stroke seat, the overall race plan for that day, you know, is I actually I got this information from Scott Gordon a little bit, but then, when, and, by the way, I did watch the video that you submitted to Road 2K about five years ago, so I got a sense for how the how the race went, seemed like the conditions were fairly good, but what was the overall race plan? And I'm asking this because I'm trying to get a sense for how much of a race plan is scripted versus you guys reacting to what's going on around you.

Chuck: 54:20

Um, no, that's a. That's a really good question and the answer to that is the whole thing is scripted um at the start, so everybody knows what to anticipate. Start, so everybody knows what to anticipate. But there are some game day, game moment changes that can happen Not usually, but that tends to be where the stroke and coxswain get across swords, because sometimes the stroke can feel things that need to happen and the coxswain sometimes can see things that need to happen. But we had a race plan and the race plan was very simple. We're not doing anything like we did two weeks ago with the Eastern Sprints.

Andy: 55:01

I mean, that was the race plan.

Chuck: 55:02

No kidding. And so you know, the Eastern Sprints had a very complex race plan. Not that it was unusual, it was. You know our start is going to be you know, half stroke, three-quarter stroke. You know our start is going to be, you know, half stroke, three quarter stroke, half stroke, full stroke, 10 at, you know, 44, something like that, 10 at 40, down to 36, you know, 10 or 20 in the middle, and then sprint for home. Right, I mean, it's a little more complicated than that Clothier's comment was.

Chuck: 55:41

I'm not letting you do anything At the start. I want you to take three full strokes and then do a 10 stroke start period and I don't want you to go above 38 for that stroke rate. And then I want you to get right on 36 and not screw with it and stay there. And I just want you to hammer it out. And I don't know how Andy felt about it. I'm not thinking that's crazy talk. You know these crews are going to go off at 44 for 20 to 30 strokes. You know we're not going to be able to see them or hear them by the time that's done with our little measly three and ten. But you know again, clodier didn't ask me for my opinion.

Chuck: 56:22

I'm sure I told Andy my opinion I'm sure he patted me on the head and said shut the hell up and get back to work and ironically it went south from there. Really it went south from there, really it went terribly from there. So the only thing we'd had that we'd come up with, that I really enjoyed doing, even in the middle of the race. Andy, I'm interested in your thoughts. We had this routine where in the middle of the race we would just jack the stroke rate up as high as we could get it for 20 strokes, just jacked the stroke rate up as high as we could get it for 20 strokes, and we aimed. The plan was to do that because you can hear everybody. Right, it's flat water, you're close, so you can hear when these crews next to you are taking their moves. Right, everybody takes a move of 10 or 20 strokes where they don't really raise the rate, but they really want you to dig in and see if you can break the will of the other guy.

Chuck: 57:14

Our plan was, when we hear them really dig in on their own, when we start hearing them say eight, nine, 10, just uncork the bottle and jack the stroke rate. So as they're coming off, we go up and just so. Now they're exhausted and we suddenly move out and sort of break their spirit. That was the emotional work. We went off the start and I'm going to blame Andy, but I have no idea who it was, because I couldn't see anybody. Somebody completely missed the first stroke. I mean completely washed out, jammed the boat over to. I think it was Starboard and we were at a dead stop after stroke one.

Andy: 57:58

I mean Andy. That's the way I remember it. It might have been me, because I've blocked that out. I don't remember that.

Chuck: 58:06

And so you know, it took us a couple of strokes to get it back together. Then we did our 10. And at the end of the 10, we were dead last by a lot, by like a length, a lot, and I'm sure Penn was next to us and Brown was on the other side.

Andy: 58:24

We're like here we go, Beat him again.

Chuck: 58:26

We already ditched those guys it's beat him again, and I remember thinking, and then I'll shut up. Oh hell, no, not this time, this one is ours. I remember having that thought around stroke 10, and that was the beginning of everything that came next for me. I mean, I'll shut up and let Andy relate.

Andy: 58:49

You have a much better memory than I do. I think I must have been oxygen deprived.

Andy: 58:56

I don't remember bringing the probably oxygen deprived from bringing the stroke rate up in the 40s, but no, at this rate. That race I just remember. I do recall that we faltered at the start, that we had that we missed something and it was not the way we wanted to get going. We missed something and it was not the way we wanted to get going, but again, we had. I think we had told ourselves, we convinced ourselves, and rightfully so, that we were the best crew out there and we weren't going to let this one get away from us. So it was a, it was a minor setback, but we, I just remember thinking the whole way with a little bit of doubt. You always wonder, you know something could happen, but the whole way just thinking no of doubt. You always wonder, you know something could happen, but the whole way just thinking no, we are going to win this, we are going. I remember telling myself that, uh, three days before, two days before, on thursday, when, uh, we had, we had wrote in the, uh, the heats that set you up for the finals, and we, we walked away with that. I just remember thinking we were too strong to get beat again. Even with a nervous flutter at the start of that final race. We got back into it, then we just walked away.

Andy: 1:00:05

It was, like Chuck said, and, to Coach Clothier's credit, it's sort of like that boat, the boys in the boat, the Washington boat that you hear about, you know, they would just beat people with a much lower stroke rate just rowing through them. Of course, they were rowing longer races than the three mile races, but we did something similar to that. I think we were just strong enough at a, at a, at our sweet spot, which is probably 34 to 36 strokes a minute, and um, and we, we, we caught them and we, I could just see boats out of my peripheral vision. I could just see boats, just, you know, getting further and further back. And then it was.

Andy: 1:00:43

Then the nerves started to kick in. Oh God, don't, let's just not screw this up. So that's that. It's sort of like the football analogy of you know, ben, but don't break, uh, you know, don't give away the big one, don't catch a crab and stop the boat or something. So, so no, I, I just remember thinking we're going to win, we're going to go win, we're going to win, and uh, you know, and, and then, of course, what we did, it was a. It was a for me personally. I think for for everybody, but for me personally it was a. It was the culmination of everything that I'd been dreaming about for four years. So yeah, it was a. It was a huge relief to win that race.

Chuck: 1:01:21

One, one interesting point which I should have mentioned, carl, was since we finished third at the sprints.

Chuck: 1:01:28

Thursday we were ranked third, when we went to the IRAs and the unique sit and and Brown was first, penn was second, we were third and there were two heats back in the day, and so that put us in the heat with Brown right. So the only race we've had against them we had lost, right, because we don't race them during the regular season. And so we're like, and only one boat goes through on that first day. The second day they come back and there's repressions, and so, like, geez, now you know, maybe we're going to have to get to the go to the through the repressions on this, you know, which is an extra race if you don't win your heat, which never is good, and we just stomped them into the dirt Like it was. It was surprising to me. I mean, it was two lengths and they'd beat us by a length and a half. We beat them two weeks later by two lengths and I didn't know this at the time.

Chuck: 1:02:26

But ironically, gladstone, who was their coach, who's now the Navy coach as of this fall, told Cloier after the race that he knew we were going to win the iras after we beat his boat in the heat um he said, and he and he even went as far as to say he had started to soft pedal a loss with his crew over the intervening two days, because he was trying to soften him up a little bit for what might be coming Right. And so, um, a unique, I mean none. None of us knew anything about that. We just knew we'd put the hammer down on them. But we still didn't know about Penn. Right, penn was in the other heat. Their time was similar to us. Never makes a difference what your times are wind, wave, water, whatever and you know we, by the 500-meter mark, we were, if not second, tied for second, behind Penn.

Karl: 1:03:25

Okay.

Chuck: 1:03:25

And so we'd come through. As Andy said, you can see these guys sort of begin to reappear in your peripheral vision. And Steckle was almost insane because he was having trouble, he was struggling. I could still see it in his eyes. He's struggling. Do I tell them that they're catching everybody or not? Because I don't want him to stop pulling and I'm like so. But but eventually you, you can't help but notice. I mean, the guys that are six lanes away maybe are harder. Um, as a matter of fact, I'm sure penn's time in the heat was faster than ours because they were the lane to the right, so they had our. Their time was faster, so we still had that concern. Um, and then, by the thousand meter mark, we heard pen do their their 10 or 20, whatever it was, and and steckle just growled into the mic don't give them a seat. And so through their 20 strokes where they're really, you know, giving a, giving 100%. We might have actually taken half a seat.

Chuck: 1:04:29

And then as they're coming off it. Stecco calls for this flutter we used to call it. We went from 36 to 42 for 20 strokes and took probably three-quarters of a length. So here these guys are, having, just you know, gone full bore, lost a seat, come off it lost three quarters of a length. I mean, the die was cast in that moment. As long as Andy's point, we didn't give up or screw it up. And in my senior year in high school, 10 strokes from the finish, leading by a length and a half, my three men caught a stroke and we came in third.

Andy: 1:05:08

So this was very much on my mind not repeating that nightmare.

Karl: 1:05:14

So yeah, and to your point, chuck, the video that I had a chance to watch yesterday picks up at about the thousand meter mark and the guys doing the color commentary I can't remember the guy who was actually calling calling the race, but the guy doing the color commentary was phil gaines, who apparently was a strong rower at syracuse a few years before, but he was navy was his pick to win based on what he had seen, to your point, in the heat races. He said, man, they've been close for so long and this just looks like their time, you know, and that was right about, because the video picks up right about the thousand meter mark, and which is when you guys made your push and he said, man, they, they're bringing it.

Karl: 1:05:51

And it just you could just see as time went on, you know the, the bows just kind of you know being even for a spell, and then just you guys just jetting right on past Penn to to finish going away. So that's pretty, that's pretty impressive on past Penn to finish going away.

Chuck: 1:06:07

So that was pretty impressive. The year before Carl, in the finals of the IRA we'd won our heat, we were in the finals, we were in the premier lane next to Brown again and the 1,500-meter mark. We were half a length, maybe a little more than that, three-quarters of a length up, and we went on to lose that race to Brown. So that's also in our psyche and you know that was not an insignificant motivation for all of us in the boat, I'm sure Right right, at least for me.

Karl: 1:06:37

You guys were definitely motivated. I'm going to test your brains here. Do you remember your time in that race?

Chuck: 1:06:42

Yeah, it was terribly embarrassing. It was 550, which at the time was lightning fast. Now to make the finals in the IRAs you have to row a sub 530. Yeah, wow, okay. And the Olympic crew in 1984, the guys that won, I think, were the Canadians, and they wrote a 535. Now you don't, you wouldn't make the finals at 535 in the iras. I mean, the tulip order is gone, the chopper or is in the boats have lost 50 pounds, the coatings, are sleeker.

Chuck: 1:07:18

Um, you know, the bows are better designed. All of that the the orlocks are are are two pin of three pin, so there's less water resistance, less wind resistance, better leverage, everything is better but they're also fitter, they're also foreigners About a bunch of farm boys from the Midwest who show up to Rome the first time.

Andy: 1:07:42

They're highly recruited athletes.

Chuck: 1:07:44

In 1984 I I'm probably misremembering, but there were two serbian guys. They were both there. I think they were twins and I think they were in the brown boat. I could be misremembering that, um, but that was it in 1995 ish that in the in the ira finals there would be, of the six boats, eight guys, 48, half of them were foreign nationals Serbia, bosnia, germany, dutch, you name it.

Chuck: 1:08:16

Today, of the 48 guys, 80% of them are foreign nationals in the finals right, and that's nothing against them if they are the best rowers in the world and they come to the best rowing place in the world to row in the most competitive scenarios in the world. It makes gladstone's job really. You know, he's never not won a championship at a college. He's coached at yale brown, stanford, I think, maybe someplace else, yeah, you want to never not want cal.

Chuck: 1:08:50

Um, he hasn't won every race, but he's always won in one of those colleges. Um, but he was the guy that pioneered this. Go go to serbia and find the two crazy twin brothers at six six and put them in your boat. Mentality it's going to be and he's a phenom, right. So we'll see.

Karl: 1:09:10

Yeah and yeah to your point, and I remember speaking on this several podcast episodes ago and I was talking about how, when you look at all the collegiate sports, by far rowing is the most international of them all. And then I went on to cite stats similar to what you just mentioned, chuck, about what percentage of rowers, both on the men and women's side mostly the men but how many seats were occupied by somebody from another country. So it really does let people know that, hey, if you're on the Navy rowing team and you're rowing in one of the shells, you are competing against the best in the world at that age, because that's exactly what you're seeing. Yep.

Chuck: 1:09:51

I, uh, Andy and I both went onto the Olympic camp after graduation and I rode in a pair with a guy from Harvard. Roll the clock ahead 35 years later I'm standing on the on the Thames river in London, up watching the Henley on Thames, which is north of London, and without any planning, I'm literally standing next to Steve Potter, like hey, I know you. And I said hey, so who are you here to watch? I'm here to watch my son. He rose for University of Washington and University of Washington just comes down. They went on to win the entire English Royal Henry Regatta in the championship division, championship men's division, which is Olympic teams and all. And I said, wow, your son rose in the varsity boat at Washington. That's impressive. He goes oh no, that's the JV boat. The varsity boat went home to row in their national boats that are here too. That's their JV boat. So Washington's JV boat won the international competition at Royal Henley, right?

Chuck: 1:10:58

And so that's kind of it's just a world apart right. And the women, their women, went on, but that's only because their varsity was was all international crews who had gone home to their own respective teams.

Andy: 1:11:07

So they're. They broke up the varsity to go row for their country. Yeah.

Chuck: 1:11:12

Yeah, yeah, right Right.

Karl: 1:11:15

Okay, so I got. I have two more questions left and, um, one of them, uh, has to do with, say, you're the IRA, commissioner, or whatever the governing, you know, whatever the title is for the governing body of collegiate rowing. Are there any changes you would like to see, as it relates to how either the regattas are run or and you guys have talked a lot about technical innovations and I don't know if there's any left to be made but anything along those lines, whether how things are organized or equipment and that sort of thing.

Andy: 1:11:48

You know, carl, honestly I don't have. I haven't been to an IRA championship in a long time and as far as the way I do know, the big difference now is that they and I think this is good is that they've the IRAs vary from year to year, either West Coast or East Coast. They used to always be an East Coast event and so we would often not have West Coast crews that were pretty good, like our year. Unfortunately, the University of Washington did not come out and race in the IRAs. Cal did, but Washington did not, and I wish they had, because I would have liked to have beaten them.

Andy: 1:12:26

There's some disagreement about who the national champs were that year, but I think we would have beaten them. I really do. So that's a good thing. I think it's either Sacramento or Tom's River. New Jersey now, I think, is the East Coast site. You know, I don't have any real knowledge, so I don't have any opinions about what they could be doing better or different. Maybe Chuck may be more in tune, especially since his daughter was rowing. Both his daughters rowed, actually in college.

Chuck: 1:12:53

Yeah, so a lot has changed. So the men Division I men are not in the NCAA, right, and so that's a good thing in my view, for reasons that I'll talk about. But the women are NCAA athletes and the sport among women is extraordinarily competitive. You know, I finally had a kid that went to a Big Ten school so I could root for a Big Ten school. She went to Wisconsin, but you, you know, going to the women's regattas and it mirrors the IRAs and the Eastern Sprints and that sort of thing.

Chuck: 1:13:26

But those teams are just incredibly impressive. You get around Ohio, michigan, texas, alabama. Who's coming up hard on the scene? Wisconsin, of course, these are just tall, strong, fit. These are just tall, strong, fit, impressive women, right, and we would have. They would have given us those women with their training and their equipment, would have given us a race for, given us hell to pay in our race with our equipment. Andy and I were the last national championship team ever to win the national championship in a wooden boat, right, and that boat is in the boathouse and everybody's like that's ridiculous, we're not as beautiful as they are. We're walking away from those, we're going to this lightweight plastic stuff. So it is that sport has really advanced on the women's side, and the Navy women are the cream of the Patriot league. They've won the Patriot league, uh, seven or eight times in a row, maybe more. Um, and my, my older daughter, wrote in the Patriot league and never beat Navy, not one time. Um, uh at her at uh, she was a captain of her, her team at MIT as well.

Andy: 1:14:42

Slackers Chuck has a couple of slacker daughters, yeah.

Chuck: 1:14:54

A couple of slacker daughters. And so you know the times have plateaued, if you take the Olympic time of 535 in 1984 to the IRA winning time. I think the fastest one I've seen is like 526, 528, something like that. For men. Now, that is blazing fast. That's a light year ahead of where we finished at five, 50.5 or something.

Chuck: 1:15:12

Um, the Olympic times aren't that much faster than that, they're you know five, twenties, right, and so it's plateaued a little bit, um, but, as the you know, I'm not going to be the guy that says there's not another technological breakthrough out there that's going to further lighten and strengthen the boats, a better hull design, um, and certainly every time we say you know someone, you know we've reached the peak of our fitness ability to train the human body. People just laugh at us at the next Olympics, yeah, yeah, look at this. People just laugh at us at the next Olympics. Yeah, yeah, look at this. Um, I would really like to see I'm sure you've seen boys in the boat, which is, you know, highlights the second best program in the nation at university of Washington. Um, um, the. The movie doesn't do the book justice, by the way. The book is so much better.

Chuck: 1:16:02

And if you haven't if you haven't, if you haven't Googled the, the movie, the video of them winning the Olympics in 36, uh, it's worth your time. It's just an incredible. How the book describes is exactly what the Germans did to him.

Chuck: 1:16:15

Um, you know, in every way to cheat, he just tried to screw him every, every day, at every turn, every, every which way. But the thing that I think uh rowing is missing is the Poughkeepsie Regatta, which is the three-mile head-to-head regatta with the train going down the Hudson for people to watch, you know, with the stands all built in facing outwards. It's just a whole different way to watch a race. Way to watch a race. You know you go to the head of the Charles and it is one of the most watched Olympic events of all time ever each year. But you know it's very much.

Chuck: 1:16:54

Oh, there they go, okay, right, on a three-mile race. That's a. You know, that's a, particularly on a train. You see how the whole thing unfolds and you get a little feel for it in the movie as well. But that kind of race is is way different than even a head race, which is meant to be head to head. Right, it comes out of Britain that you know, you're, you start one behind the other 15 second intervals. You're really, you're really rowing against yourself in that regatta. You know, I would certainly like to see that race. The other thing, and, andy, you might opine 2019, yes, 2019, at the Royal Henley Regatta. They did the 100-year anniversary of the King's Cup and in that boat.

Chuck: 1:17:41

the requirements for the boat were you had to have two women and two lightweights in that boat. The requirements for the boat were you had to have two women and two lightweights in that boat. And Navy went on to win that thing against France, germany, everybody else in the Senate, and the finals were against Germany, which is ironic, and the name of our boat was Overlord which is ironic.

Chuck: 1:18:05

And everybody in the German boat was a post-grad and we had sophomores and juniors in that boat. A lightweight was stroking the boat, but next time you watch that, just watch the two women in the back in the bow. Yes, it is just incredible to me. I'm sure they could kick my butt on the erg back in my heyday, and so to me that's really an interesting format that I wish they would do every year, because it fundamentally changes, you know, to get the women in the boat, the lightweights in the boat.

Andy: 1:18:43

That was very cool. That was an amazing event. Yeah, in the boat, the lightweights in the boat, yeah, it was very cool, that was an amazing event.

Chuck: 1:18:46

Yeah, that's just my thoughts.

Karl: 1:18:49

I totally agree with you, especially on the mixed races. And, by the way, I've watched that Henley event. It's saved as one of my favorites on YouTube. I've seen it no joke at least two dozen times.

Chuck: 1:19:01

Yeah, me too. Just sit there and just watch it.

Karl: 1:19:05

Me too. I believe I can't remember her first name, but her last name was kind of like one of those, valencia Martinson I think something like that. But she went on to make the U23 national team and then she was a world champion at I think she was in the women's eights boat in uh in that race that was run somewhere out in Eastern Europe or something like that. But yeah, pretty good stuff.

Chuck: 1:19:34

I met her at the. I met they were both juniors in that race because I met them the next year at the crew banquet in February and I, when I was introduced to them, my two thoughts were you don't look anything like the monster woman that was in the bow of that boat just hammering it out. I mean, they're cut and just you know, just crazy, you know. And so I was reminded that outside, outside the boat, we were all just kids really.

Chuck: 1:20:00

And here they are these eight monster people in this boat winning, you know, an international competition. You put them in uniform and you clean us all up and we all look like we're 12 again, right, you know? I don't know why that dichotomy just struck me so dramatically, but they're both very quiet, they're both. Both those young women were introverts, in my opinion. Maybe they just didn't want to talk to them. You know the old white guy, I don't know um, but but their, their persona in the boat uh, sticks with me to this day, um, just because it those two and the and the stern to the two lightweights yeah, the two lightweights, yeah, the true lightweights of the stern yeah, um, because it was shattering all of my you know preconceptions right right.

Chuck: 1:20:50

That race shattered so many glass doors, ceilings, floors, perceptions for me um that it it obviously. It still sticks with me.

Karl: 1:21:00

I yeah, right, right, um. So last question for both of you and uh, and you can go first and then Chuck, and this is something that I kind of it just kind of was a self. It was something I realized as I started. Conclusion, after listening to him and just watching the events, that when you're together as a crew, I just think that over time that the I mean athletes and teams form bonds right, I mean from playing together and that sort of thing. But I believe that the bonds that are formed among the members of a crew might be a little bit stronger, and I'm not going to say why I think that right now. I want to hear what your take is. First of all, do you think that's an accurate characterization and why, or why not, if you don't agree, or whatever. But I'm curious to get your thoughts on this whole idea of the bonds that you form with your teammates, not just in the boat but amongst the entire team, and how that compares to other sports.

Andy: 1:22:14

Yeah, no, I would say that it's probably not always the case. There are certainly some other sports where the teams are very, for whatever reason, are very strong. Football, the teams are very, for whatever reason, are very strong football, basketball, you know, baseball, whatever. But I think in general, rowing I've you know it's an easy thing to say and I think there's a lot of truth in it that rowing is the ultimate team sport there's. There's no, aside from maybe the stroke or there's nobody in the boat, that is necessarily more important than anyone else. It's very much. You basically all suffer together. There's no superstar we're trying to feed the ball to Again Chuck's being I know he's going to be modest about this the stroke war has a their on their shoulders. So, that aside, uh, and and everybody has their own responsibility to to not check the boat, to not mess things up, to have a good attitude, not not uh, you know and not uh, be a cancer in the boat in training.

Andy: 1:23:19

Because when you think about it, most of your, most of your time, I forget what the ratio is. It's some unbelievable ratio of hours spent training to hours spent racing. It's off the charts. I mean, I don't think there's any other sport maybe some running sports, distance sports where you spend as much time training as you do for the few minutes you get to race and compete if you get to be in that boat. So to the second part of your question.

Andy: 1:23:50

One of the strengths of Navy rowing was we had a strong program. We didn't just have fast varsity and junior varsity and maybe even a plead boat, we had guys, we had depth. We won the team championships at the IRAs. Every year it's called the Tonight Trophy. We won it four years in a row and even when our varsity didn't win, or maybe the JV didn't win, we'd still win that thing because we were so deep. I used to just marvel at the guys who would come to practice and work hard every single day and maybe not even get in a boat to race that season. They were there for whatever reason their personal reasons, but I think a lot of it had to do with being part of that team. So that's that speaks to the team aspect of it and feeling a kinship with those guys, for you know, forever.

Chuck: 1:24:39

Yeah. So to Andy's point, if you have an average crew, your total race time over the course of your regular season is 24 minutes. If you have, if you have a good crew or a great crew, your race time over the course of a season will be 23 minutes and 10 or 15 seconds, right, and you just multiply that by the hours that have gone in to that. Three hours a day, six days a week. You know, going forward, there, there, there's no, there's no quarterback, there's no pitcher, there's no coach's kid. You know there's no sprinter, shot putter, it's, you're all, you're all in there at the same level. To Andy's point so I think that you know that dynamic of you know we rely on X or X person or Y person is is gone. So you, you know that probably builds the, the team spirit, I would say.

Chuck: 1:25:44

You know, I will say, as I came to the reunion, you know I had three groups of people that I wanted to catch up with. You know, first and foremost, the crew guys, right. Second, my company mates. And third, you know, the fellow submariners out there that you know I, fellow submariners out there that you know I'd run into and we're, we're friends, the team that. See if there's one that rivals us. I would think you know I would lean towards somebody like lacrosse, those guys you know, garland and Calabrese, and those guys seem to have a really good bond. But it's a bigger team right. There's 10 of us, I think, left that show up to these things. Andy, maybe you know 8 to 10 in our class and we always get together Everybody who comes. Even Jan came out of Mississippi for this one to come spend time with us. So certainly the high level of suffer to the low level of, you know, racing experience, I think builds a certain camaraderie that lasts.

Karl: 1:27:01

Yeah, yeah, and I think my reasons for thinking this are a nice blend of what the both of you said and specifically speaking to what Andy mentioned about no one person being more important. Right, and if you're on a basketball team and you're a point guard, you run the offense and everything like that. If you are the two guard, you know your responsibility is to make sure that you can make open shots when you get them Right, to kind of keep the team in the game. And then, of course, the front court's got different responsibilities. When you got an oar in your hand, you got one job, and one job only, and obviously that's to pull it through the water as fast as you can, but at the same time, as everybody can, to the best of your ability.

Karl: 1:27:48

And to me that's what makes it so special, because you are doing one thing over and over. That's right, and you're trying to do it as perfectly as you can to be able to, you know, take that, take that boat to, uh, you know, across the finish line first. So you know, that's the one thing. And, of course, to what Chuck was saying, of course, all the suffering and all the time you put in in order to accomplish. That, I think, does to me make things a little bit more special compared to some of the other teams.

Karl: 1:28:19

Again, that's just my own personal take, but I just think that, you know, never having had that experience to be able to sit in a shell with, you know, seven other guys with an oar plus a coxswain, and just trying to get yourself in sync to the point where you're just going as hard as you can, 100 percent, and you're just doing everything as in sync as you can, as in sync as you possibly can that that to me would be the ultimate. And for those of you listening out there, I did want to mention that, on the strength of that IRE performance, you know that 1v8 boat winning, everybody in that shell, is part of the Navy Athletics Hall of Fame. So I did want to mention that to the folks who are out there listening. So congratulations to both of you guys and, of course, the rest of the team.

Andy: 1:29:06

Thank you yeah.

Karl: 1:29:07

So that pretty much does it for the questions I have. We've had a good discussion here and it's been great hearing all these stories. Any final thoughts before we sign off, guys?

Andy: 1:29:18

Go ahead, Chuck.

Chuck: 1:29:21

No, no, I'm going to just relay this story, andy, and I just apologize because I know you'll hear it over and over, but it's my favorite story of rowing.

Andy: 1:29:30

I know you'll hear it when it ends.

Chuck: 1:29:33

I just love this story. It's everything about our crew experience. So we go up to Syracuse, we went up at Syracuse, we're driving back 81 or 80, what it is to the middle of nowhere in upstate New York and we pull off to one of these roadside monster McDonald's and back in the day you'd get $10. That was your per diem. Right, go get your Big Mac or whatever. And so we go in and Andy's behind me and I order my Big Mac and my vanilla shake and my fries, whatever. And I hear Andy, yeah, I'd like three Big Mac meals. Uh, upsize the fries and and and three strawberry shakes.

Andy: 1:30:12

I'm like all right, well, you know he pulls harder than I do before. The movie supersized me too. Yeah, didn't know any better.

Chuck: 1:30:18

Yeah, yeah so we get back, we get back in the bus and we're probably 20 minutes away and I'm probably midway up on the bus. On the right, andy in the captain's seat is all the way in the back of the bus, In the middle you know the most comfortable, the cool kids, not like the nerds right the engine room.

Chuck: 1:30:37

They could beat you up if you were back there. And I hear this string of profanity just start emanating out of the back of the bus. God dang it. And I'm like dude. What is your problem?

Andy: 1:30:56

They forgot my third strawberry shake, oh man.

Chuck: 1:31:04

And so roll the clock ahead to Joe Pesci and you'll get the immediate. They always screw you at the drive-thru, Exactly. They never give you what you want.

Andy: 1:31:10

Exactly. You realize, Chuck, that this is in perpetuity. Now.

Karl: 1:31:15

That's great.

Chuck: 1:31:17

After we're both long gone, this story will be told. It's my favorite story in all of my 10 years of rowing.

Andy: 1:31:27

Oh, I'm not sure that's how I want to be remembered, but I'll take it. Oh god okay.

Andy: 1:31:36

So, Andy, you got the, you've got the last word well, I, you know, for me personally I Me personally I can't think of anything that exceeds the experience I had being a Navy crew member, being part of that team, being part of that lineage, but specifically the years I was there, we were very fortunate to come in as the program was on the upswing and I think we had. We had outstanding coaches, both coach dreyfus and certainly coach clother. We had, uh, reasonably good facilities and and equipment, and, and more so, we had a real uh. We were following some real legends from guys 30 years before us, the, the great eight, which may be the best collegiate rowing crew of all time. I, I could be wrong, but I think they are um, yeah, and and then and oh, by the way, I've told this story too but, uh, we were back for our 30th reunion and I, I got up and I was presenting a trophy that was being put in, that was going to be put in as part of the Adams Cup, which is Navy, harvard and Penn every year, and the trophy is a Clothier trophy, named after our coach, rick Clothier, and it was a team points trophy that we were adding.

Andy: 1:32:57

Unfortunately, I don't think Navy's won it, since we put it in 10 years ago, but regardless, I probably spoke way too long at this thing, but I made the point that all these midshipmen were standing there listening as we're talking about you know, thinking yeah, these guys, we're not that far removed from them, and I realized these are the same. This is the same difference in time, 30 years, as when the grade eight would come back and visit and as much as I was in awe of them, I remember thinking it's amazing how well these, how well these old guys are actually going to get in a boat and paddle a few strokes down the college streets here. Wait a minute, we are those old guys. Yeah, it's been an honor. It was certainly worth every minute of the effort, and it's been an honor not just to be part of the program but to have the lifelong friendships from it.

Karl: 1:33:48

So yeah, yeah, no doubt. All right guys, that's. That looks like a really good place to stop, and I really want to thank you for taking the time to share your stories with me. I got a big kick out of it and, believe me, I could go on for a little bit longer. There's actually a few questions here that I decide okay, let's not get too carried away, because we could go on forever. That's how enthusiastic I am about the sport itself, so thanks again for joining me today.

Andy: 1:34:13

Take care. Great Thank you, Karl. Appreciate it. Thanks for being such a great promoter of the Navy crew.

Karl: 1:34:20

Thanks guys, bye now. All right, we're going to go ahead and step away real quick, but don't go anywhere because we have our question of the day and mid-watch segments coming up next. This is Carl Darden and you're listening to Navy Sports Central. Okay, now it's time for our question of the day, and before we get to it, let's check out the responses from our last question, and that was way back in December. So here's a question just to refresh your memory and remember. We're talking about Navy's record in bowl games. Espn is predicting that Navy will play in either the Armed Forces Bowl on December 27th against Miami of Ohio or in the Military Bowl on December 28th against Boston College, and of course, we know that the Mids ended up playing Oklahoma in the Armed Forces Bowl. But anyway, the Mids' overall record in bowl games is 12, 11, and 1. What is their longest winning streak in these games is 12, 11, and 1. What is their longest winning streak in these games? Is it A, 2, b, 3, c, 4, or D? None of the above. Now it turns out that the most popular response was B three games, in fact. Everyone who responded to the poll went with that choice, and it also happens to be the correct one.

Karl: 1:35:43

The Mids won three straight bowl games from 2013 to 2015. You may remember that they defeated Middle Tennessee State in the Armed Forces Bowl, and that was in Keenan Reynolds' sophomore year. In 2014, the Mids just barely got by San Diego State when the Aztecs missed a field goal at the end of the game. I think the offense lost four fumbles that day, so the team was very lucky to get the win. And then in 2015, they rolled Pitt 44-28 in the Military Bowl. That was the game that Reynolds set the NCAA record for career rushing touchdowns with 88. And again, I think I've said before that somebody a running back or somebody may come along and break that record, but I don't think a quarterback is going to. So anyway, that one could be around for a long time. And just so you know, navy is currently riding a second three-game winning streak in bowl games, following their win over Oklahoma in the most recent edition of the Armed Forces Bowl. You'll recall that the Mids beat Virginia in 2017, 49-7, and then they took down Kansas 20-17 in the Liberty Bowl in 2019. The Mids won that game on a last second field goal by Bijan Nichols.

Karl: 1:36:48

Okay, so now it's time for the question for this episode, and here it goes. The IRA championship that the Navy heavyweight rowing team won in 1984 was the Mids most recent. How many do they have altogether? Is it A7, b9, c11, or D13? You guys can think about that for a little bit and get back to me. You can answer by going to the Navy Sports Nation group Facebook page or by sending me a text using the link in the show notes.

Karl: 1:37:17

Okay, we are down to our mid-watch segment and, with the winter and spring sports seasons overlapping, I thought it would make sense to pick a couple of athletes on the track and field team to follow. That way we can stick with them as they finish up the indoor season before moving outside next month. Let's start with the women's team, and you guys heard me mention her name earlier in the sports update. We're going to be following Gia Anderson. Gia is a junior from Wilmington, delaware. She is a sprinter and hurdler who competes in the 60 meter dash, the 60 meter hurdles those are the indoor events and she also runs the 100 meter hurdles outdoors. Gia is the two-time defending Patriot League champion in the 60 meter hurdles and was a member of the four by 100 meter relay team that took first in the outdoor Patriot League championships last year. She also owns five of the 10 best times in the 60 meter hurdles ever run at the Academy, including the top four. Her personal best is 8.41 seconds. Gia also stepped up to run the 200 meters in this year's indoor star meet against Army and won that with a time of 25.35. It'll be interesting to see if Anderson sticks with that 200-meter event outdoors in addition to running the 100-meter hurdles. That would add even more depth for the women in the sprints.

Karl: 1:38:26

Now on the men's side, we'll be keeping our eyes on senior Murphy Smith from Charlotte, north Carolina. Murphy runs the 3,000 and the 5,000 meters indoors and the 5,000 and 10,000 meters outdoors. In fact, he won the indoor 5,000 meters at last year's Patriot League Championships. He's also run the fastest indoor 5,000 and outdoor 10,000 meters in school history. The Mids have a lot of depth in the middle and long distances, and Murphy Smith is one of the reasons why he has a knack for coming up big when it matters most. Take last week, for example, at West Point against Army. Not only did he win the 3,000 meters, but he also broke the field house record in the process, and if you're the Black Knights. That's got to sting a little bit. That's going to do it for this edition of Navy Sports Central.

Karl: 1:39:09

Thank you all so much for joining us Now. If you like what you've heard, please be sure to hit that follow button wherever you get your podcasts, and remember to get the word to all the other Navy fans out there. Once again, I'd like to thank my classmates Andy Bigelow and Chuck Melcher from the Navy Heavyweight Rowing Team for joining me today. It was great to hear them recap their terrific senior season that resulted in a national championship.

Karl: 1:39:29

Our question of the day continues to be a show favorite. You can get in on that by joining the Navy Sports Nation group Facebook page and giving your answer to this week's question. You can also respond by sending us a text. All you need to do is click on the link in the show notes. And just a quick reminder the views expressed on Navy Sports Central are my own and do not reflect those of the US Naval Academy or Navy Athletics. By the way, the music used in Navy Sports Central comes to you courtesy of Audio Jungle. This is a great site for purchasing the rights to use the music from thousands of artists around the world and those featured in the podcast will be credited in our show notes. Talk to you soon, everybody. Until next time. This is Karl Darden. Go, navy, beat army.